1/23/2008

Loli Pop Culture: The great divide

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Twice now I've been called on my labeling of anime characters as lolis, when I thought I was near-certain that they were.

And aside from launching me off on awkwardly and one might say disturbingly statistical arguments - if you look at the Primula one - it set me off to thinking?

What in the heck really is a loli?

It's kind of anime's "weapons of mass destruction". A term that sends a lot of people recoiling, without them knowing really what it is. I could point to a character very easily, much like I could point to a nuclear missile, and say "This is a loli."


The character, not the missile. Please don't tell me I'm wrong this time.

And I could point to a piece of styrofoam, and say "this is not a weapon of mass destruction," much like I could wield Akiko Minase as an example that yes, there are girls in anime over 18 and decidedly non-loli.

Then, y'know, there's the in-betweens. Those that are young in age but old in looks, or those that are young in looks but old in age. What really counts as a loli, anyway? A lot of people have a sort of shudder, knee-jerk "BAD!" reaction to the term, evidenced much by the Kodomo no Jikan manga scandal, but there are many varied forms of lolis out there, some pure, some perverted, and far too many borderline to count.

This ends up so that when one starts thinking about why they hate lolis, it's difficult to come up with an argument other than "they are bad," because nobody knows what they really are.

So here's another editorial, an impromptu second part to the Moe Rising article from last time, about what a loli really is.

As always when I'm busy looking up something often considered as disturbing by the anime fandom or the real world, I head to my favorite harem-master over at Hontou ni Taihen Desu for some balanced, level-headed commentary on things that would raise quite a few eyebrows in other, perhaps more sane places.

I had remembered an old post of his, now celebrating its one-year anniversary, regarding his definition of what a loli was. As pure as his child-loving nature is (feel free to cough suspiciously) he does note that loli has taken on a highly sexualized connotation, and I can't help but agree.

If you've ever wondered what loli meant before, you've probably asked around and gotten the canned answer that it was spawned from that one Russian novel Lolita about, in short, some old guy sexually interested in some young girl named, yup, Lolita. I'm not sure how exactly it started getting thrown around in anime circles so much - I've rarely-to-never seen it used outside of an anime context - but the link to this book has never really been lost, as the use of the word 'loli' by some people has always had some dirty undertones to it, like "I see, you're watching a loli show."

And probably there's something to be said about the two character I claimed as loli - Ayu (Kanon) and Primula (Shuffle!) - not to mention 95% of most I could think could clearly fit the bill stemming from either eroge or visual novels. I will always stand behind the visual novel genre as a great combination of appealing characters, dramatic storytelling, and strong emotional appeal, but when the majority of your target audience is guys there is, admittedly, a lot of pandering going on sometimes, even if that is just so that the characters can break the mold.

Which leads to the second common way I've seen loli be thrown about, and that's in more of a physical context. A literal measuring stick like the ones you would see at an amusement park, that read "you must be shorter than this hand to be loli". Some might weigh the Delicious Flat Chest factor of a character as equally or more important than the height, as well. It's certainly easier to measure characters this way, as physical characteristics are typically more objective than subjective characteristics.

But yet, it's not foolproof. Exhibit A: Lucky Star.

How many lolis do you see in this picture?

There's that issue of art style playing up or down a character's physical portrayal. Lucky Star has this issue especially, drawing all its characters in a somewhat-deformed fashion, de-emphasizing physical characteristics. For instance, Miyuki is one of the 'larger' characters in the show, yet she is portrayed modestly, especially compared to cow-fests like Dragonaut. This has the side-effect of making most of the high school characters, right around 18 in age, look like short washboards.

Obviously there are a few for-certain lolis in the bunch - Konata wears it with pride, and Yutaka, I think, actually IS of young age relative to the cast - but there are one or two more of the cast in question. Most of the characters are mature enough to not seem childish, but the lovable Tsukasa certainly is on the borderline if anything else.

Or flip over to Shakugan no Shana - the titular Shana, for example. Short, flat, and immature. Undoubtedly she's actually pretty old, and she doesn't exactly fit the loli mold, but when you compare her to other females such as Kazumi or Ogata (?), a trend becomes apparent.

Take the other side of the coin; Aoi Oribe from Myself;Yourself. Mentally and vocally, she might as well be a ten-year-old, with a voice lifted straight from Chiyo (Azumanga). Physically, she's probably the most built of the cast. What's your verdict?

I doubt you'll find anyone who will call Aoi a loli, which gives a bit of preference for physical over mental characteristics in the loli definition, but also brings to mind an interesting concept I believe in; relative loli.

Lolis nowadays are all over the map; they are, believe it or not, not just sexualized little kids meant to make church pastors happy in the pants, but also, an excellent way to portray the concept of maturing in characters. As Owen has professed over Hinako from the same series, they can be surprising when they act like adults, or try to, and break the typical stereotype of little kids. Quite often they are childlike only in look, hiding a deeper personality inside, as Fuuko from Clannad could attest to (well, most of the time). They can hide great insights that more 'adult' characters overlook, as is the case of Koyori in sola.

And as such, the word 'loli' a lot of time has shed its sexualized meaning and become more of a general descriptor, in the same vein as 'tsundere'; there are many variations of it, and the term serves only as a sort of starting point for a character, a quick way to point viewers in the right direction, that doesn't really pin a lot of who they are down.

I say 'relative' loli because a lot of characters I label loli, might not be as such, but are clearly so compared to the rest of the cast. Primula, of Shuffle, may, apparently, be too tall and too busted for a canon loli, but when you compare her to Sia, Asa, Nerine, Kaede, and all, it's pretty clear-cut to me. Not to mention, the role she fits as the 'pseudo-adopted child' certainly fits in that loli section as well, right down to the way she acts.

Ayu, may be too mature, too old for loli status outright, but considering her easily amused, cheerful demeanor, and her being a head down on most characters, she can easily be described with the word 'loli'. (Not to mention, any spoilery reasons about why she is so.) It's not like Yuuichi is going to get busted for being a pedobear any time soon, but Ayu is definitely one that could be recgonized as 'the loli one' if I were to off-hand it, just as if I called Mai 'the quiet one' or Sayuri 'the laughing one'.

Is this diluting the word? Probably. But it seems to be used more and more as a casual word, at least to describe characters. It's not a positive nor a negative connotation - most of the time - but more widely used as a 'of this type' descriptor, kind of like the visual novel genre as a whole.

Not all visual novels may be the same - some are more dirty than others, some are slightly different in approach - but you know the gist of what you're getting when you get into one.

Likewise, a 'loli' has become a mix of characteristics, mostly physical, but also reflecting on the mental side as well; the physique will make or break a 'loli' status, but the state of mind is reserved for judging characters that are more borderline (Konoe, from Shana II, might be a good example). It doesn't always imply sexuality - although there are some that use it in such a way, that I reserve the 'lolicon' branding for - although it usually has at least a slight undertone of physical attractiveness.

(For instance, the cast of Cardcaptor Sakura is not loli, because they are not built to be physically, but rather emotionally, attractive. Many magical girl heroines, like Amu Hinamori, fall into this category.)

Will 'loli' ever lose its negative stigma? Probably not - the issue of pedophilia is a touchy one, especially in the United States, and when this name crossed the wrong people, it really became sort of a 'brand of evil' to stamp on things. Kind of like how some people brand things "moe trash", they call things "blatant lolicon pandering". Of course, neither is true, as there are good parts to both sides, and not just to dirty minds, either.

To be honest, I cannot vouch personally, but I am venturing out to try Kodomo no Jikan, the manga, as an experiment (one that, unfortunately, does not involve a lot of kissing). We will see whether I will come back with sanity and libido unscathed.

-CCY

One more - you make the call.

(Incidentally, at my age, being a lolicon probably isn't illegal if I'm on the upper edge of shota myself. For the record, though, I don't have any bias towards or against loli characters, barring those that are over-sexualized.)

(Yes, that KimiKiss link was random, but there's a lot of ace discussion going on about this 'unpredictably predictable' - am I allowed to quote myself? - romance anime.)

193 comments:

I am surprised at the amount you can write on something so utterly pointless and meaningless.

I am surprised at the amount you can write on something without knowing crap about the Lolicon community and culture.

*pure and innocent cough* XD

I like the idea of a relative loli Some characters just naturally slip into that role as if it's a niche carved out when the cast comes together. I think of Hagu from Honey and Clover. She's the same age as StrikerS Fate but she looks younger than Fate in Nanoha As yet we can't call her a loli?

There are plenty of semantics Nazis out there and I may have been lambasted for using 'loli' on the cast of DCII. They just miss the point. Often when we use the word, it's more to associate loli attributes with the character and the problem is there are widely differing views on what are loli-attributes. Instead of attacking its usage, it'd be better to understand the angle from which the writer is coming from.

This was one of the things that made start using the word 'lolicious' to describe 13-17 yr old bishoujos so as not to attract the loli-Gestapo.

Good read btw. :)

Interesting post... I'll write a response to it later.

I consider any character under fourteen and with little to no chest to be a loli. That's why I consider Sakura Kinomoto and Shana to be loli.

Very long post indeed. The fact is you fail at understanding what's loli, because you're not a lolicon yourself. That's the main problem.
Loli has nothing to do with comparasons, it has to do with how the character looks.
Example of recent loli characters from 'loli related' shows:
Ryofuko-chan
Kokonoe Rin
Ink-chan

Primula and Ayu themselves are no way in hell loli, it's even more obvious if you played the game or checked the HCGs (usually faster through the HCGs though).
Also, Key and Navel are known to not be doing loli (though it is no longer the case for Navel and maybe soon same for Key if Kuro is H-able in LB EX) in their games.
Examples:
Soul Link (Navel) : the potential H-scene with Nanami is stopped before anything really starts.
Air (Key) : the red-haired loli isn't H-able apparently.

I also agree with anonymous #2:
You are clueless about loli and write a whole essay about your non knowledge of it.
You'd just need to go and agree with stripey about any of the DCII girls to be lolis to make every lolicons of the world laugh at you along with stripey who obviously doesn't even have a slight clue about loli and think he knows everything about something he doesn't know shit about.
Seriously it's fucking simple, loli has nothing to do with how the character react it only has to do with 2 things:
1) small
2) delicious flat chest
Therefore yes, Hagu is loli@stripey, that's the only thing I can actually agree about with you (but that doesn't change you don't know crap about it if you start calling chars from dc2 lolis)

Ouch. Talk about a loli mafia, indeed.

Dude, ignore the Anons above. Anyone who thinks it's a 'problem' that you're not a lolicon and that consequently you have no right to talk about the issue is an idiot. Basically the definition of an anime 'loli' is a drawn or CGI little girl showing only the earliest signs of puberty. Sad bastards like to fantasise about abusing them with their tiny cocks due to imagining them not just laughing at their pathetic faces. Basically pedophiles without the balls to admit little kids turn them on - its 'animated' so not real, apparently. IMHO, if you wank over kids, drawn or photographed - congratulations, you are a sick fu*k. Now kindly die young. CCY, keep up the good work

Amazing how ppl loves to bash others while hiding behind the veil of "anonymous". They don't even bother to put in a nickname =/

I actually think that one of Lucky Star's main attractions is its lolicon nature. Not just the main cast, but everyone in the series is drawn in a "loli" fashion - short, young, etc.

I had at first thought that the entire cast is no older than 12, and that the policewoman (Cousin Yui) in the OP was really a 14yr old XD

Anonymous is an easy name, that's why.
Obviously the last anonymous is a fucking idiot who doesn't know shit about loli and also wants to make peoples think he knows anything about it.
As for Lucky Star, you confuse chibification and lolis, though Konota is probably loli since she's supposed to look 11.

Guy who watches anime said...
October 10, 2008 at 8:59 PM
 

Hm... Very interesting. It helps me figure out character roles more in the anime i watch. This is the first time i've ever looked at a blog about an anime (or, in this case, a description of characters in anime), but i needed some help with the word as it was used in a show, Nagasarete Airantou, and i lost the entire thread of conversation, as it confused me. Now i know quite a bit more. Must say, good work, very descriptive and interesting, also puts many shows in perspective. Also, don't worry about people putting you down, and don't insult them either, just let it go, because they know something you don't, and you know something they don't, and it dosn't match. A definition of a word is how you use it, and what it means to you and the people you associate with, and i think i will subscribe to this definition.(giant exageration coming, but with a point) If someone from india said my american usage of "Mom" (consider phonetics) meant Big Pie(look at my complete and pathetic lack of knowledge on Hindi) to him, i'd wonder why that person said that, because to me it means mom, so his point means absolutely nothing except as a random comment, not anything like an insult, and that person should probably put my definition of the words i use over what he thinks the words are so that he can understand me better. Consider this loli debate, You say loli is either an adult that looks and acts (extremely) young, an immature adolescent (drawn acordingly), or a wise adult-like child, each with a physical attractiveness, all of which fill a character role which brings the story to fruition, and Anonymous says that they are just there to make the show soft porn (i got mixed feeling from anonymous, as he/she seems to think that this is both a good thing and a bad thing at the same time, in his/her several posts. He/she must him/herself be devided on the issue, and needs to resolve it within him/herself, just to stop internal stress, and by the way, Anonymous is a very strange name, punch your mother and father for me) The "sexual" alure of loli can be construed many ways. Now, overly sexual can't be reconciled, though it depends on the actions of the character, and the writer's intent of the character, to define overly sexual. Now, 'cute' loli can be apreciated. They fill a role in a story, add an entertainment factor, and some stability. It is possible to see a 12-13 year old girl on the sidewalk or in the mall and think "she's gonna be a heartbreaker" without having to walk funny for a few minutes. You can laugh at their childlike personality, and watch them grow. Personally i think some of the 'boychaser' type lolis are funny, i don't see them as overly sexual, because they fail at it. Quite a few girls that age (well, a little bit younger, call it 8-9) chase boys, having 'boyfriends' for a few hours, whether or not the guy knows about it. Anime is not about reality, it's about the extraordinary and about exageration. Looking at that, the loli type is the exagerated form of many young girls between 8-12.

Thank you for your article, i enjoyed both reading it and commenting on it.

And i know what Anonymous means, just in case someone didn't get the joke. (*sigh*)

Lolis are an endangered species, hunted for their fine, tender bodies; most often by US Government funded freelancer agents.

They are told they are "saving the lolis" from mass-exploitation. But the truth is that the little girls are not taken to "rehab / education", but instead, hidden away on Deer Island and used as sex slaves.

That's what I think. You seen the campaigns to stop lolicon nowadays?.

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